Author-friends, Meet Carleen Brice
Wednesday, December 16, 2009
Carleen Brice is the author of the novels Orange Mint and Honey and Children of the Waters as well as the nonfiction books Lead Me Home: An African American's Guide Through the Grief Journey and Walk Tall: Affirmations for People of Color. She's edited the anthology Age Ain't Nothing But A Number: Black Women Explore Midlife. In 2008, she won the Breakout Author of the Year Award from the African American Literary Awards Show, and in 2009 she received the First Novel Award from the Black Caucus of the American Library Association. She's also the genius mastermind behind the blog White Readers Meet Black Authors, where her posts are sometimes serious, sometimes hilarious, and always thoughtful and incredibly smart.

Please tell everyone a little bit about who you are and what you do.
I’m a writer, with 2 novels published. While promoting my first book I realized that there’s some kind of disconnect with fiction in which books with black characters and/or written by black authors are considered as “black books,” i.e. only for black readers. There are some exceptions—particularly when you look at literary fiction. But the truth is that even though I and many of my writer-friends have a spectrum of readers, our books haven’t truly crossed over.
In conversations online with friends I jokingly threw out the idea that somebody should start a Buy a Book by Somebody Black and Give it to Somebody White Day to get white people to read more black authors, and somebody should start a web site that introduced books by black authors to a wider readership. I got lots of positive emails from the people following the thread, and it dawned on me that maybe I was that somebody. After all, you don’t have to be a web master to start a web page or a blog. So I did. Last November I launched the site White Readers Meet Black Authors and designated December as National Buy a Book by a Black Author and Give it to Somebody Not Black Month.
I usually post on Tuesdays. I post lists of books for gift ideas (Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, etc.), book reviews, and commentary. My aim is to spread the word about the good books that maybe people aren’t hearing about and to raise awareness about the particular issues black American writers face.
Publishing has historically marginalized writers of color as either genre writers of "urban fiction" or literary writers of "ethnic" fiction. In other words, books by people of color can only be about slaves, gangsters, or people living in other countries (with the underlying assumption being that "regular" books are written for, by, and about white folks). Do you see any signs of hope that that's changing?
I look hard for signs of hope because I need hope to keep going. So yes I see them. But only because I look really hard for them. If I didn’t look hard, I would be enormously discouraged. The author Bernice McFadden published an essay on her blog that Zora Neale Hurston wrote in 1950. It pretty much still applies today. Especially when authors Virginia DeBerry and Donna Grant have recently written an essay called Writing White about crossing over. But if I focus too much on that I’ll just go to bed forever, and that wouldn’t really help anything.
Since I started the blog, I’ve received many positive comments and emails from every kind of reader. I think I’ve helped sell a few books, and that makes me happy. In essence I’m a bookseller (I even worked at two bookstores and in libraries)—I like matching people with books. So I focus on how we can do more of that. I also get some negative comments from people who don’t agree with the points I’m making or don’t get my sense of humor. To each his own.
It’s only been a year or so since I’ve been publishing fiction myself and blogging about it, so I can’t say that I’ve seen any major changes in publishing about how they position books by black authors. As you know, everybody’s hurting and everybody’s scrambling. It’s tough out there for people who care about books and stories right now no matter what their race. Galleycat started their “People of Color” feature and a few people in the biz have admitted in blogs that race/racism does play a role in how publishing works. That’s very validating. Some people tend to believe if a book is good it will be on the bestseller lists and if it’s bad it won’t get published or it will flop and that is so not all there is to it!
What would you like to see shift within the industry to make it more inclusive of/welcoming to readers and writers of color, and to reflect the diversity of the reading public?
I would love to see books treated as books. So if a book is women’s fiction, I’d love to see it marketed broadly to women, not only black women. What tends to happen is that my books and books like mine have to become popular with black audiences and then cross over. And it’s maddening! It’s maddening to see a book like The Help get marketed to all readers and a book like The Air Between Us get lost in the shuffle. Similar subject matter. One author is white; one is black. Is that the reason why one took off and one didn’t…? Probably not the only reason, but it’s hard to believe it’s not part of the reason. I’d love to see L.A. Banks’ vampire books shoot up the bestseller lists like Charlaine Harris’ books. I’d like to see HBO or some other channel turn them into a series like True Blood.
I’d love to see a white writer called “the new Pearl Cleage” or "the new Attica Locke” instead of always vice versa. I’d love to see book reviewers compare books by genre and subject matter instead of by authors’ ethnicity.
What are some specific things that readers and industry people can do to be better allies? Resources for allies (i.e. websites, books) that you like?
Editors, when you get a book by a black author, think of it as a book. If you love the story and you think others will love the story, tell everybody about it, not just black people. If The Kite Runner, Shanghai Girls and Best Friends Forever can be considered universal stories, why can’t Before I Forget, What Doesn’t Kill You and Third Girl From the Left ?
Inviting me to do this interview helps get the word out. I was on a panel at BEA last year. That helps.
I hear from so many white people who say they never look at the picture on a book and therefore have no idea whether the author is white, Latino or whatever. I believe that’s true. I doubt that most people go into a store and decide "I only want books by white authors." However, I can guarantee you that if you don’t make an effort to look around and find books by a variety of writers, the vast majority, over 95% of the books you’ll read, will be by white authors.
That decision is being made for you by editors, marketers, booksellers at every point along the way. If you’re okay with that, then cool. But if you’re not, if you don’t like the idea that the powers that be are limiting what you’re exposed to, make the small effort to find more. I feel that way about books by Latino, Native American and Asian authors (again except for a lucky handful). If I don’t make the effort to read them, I probably won’t because I won’t be exposed to them. I won’t be considered their audience.
And finally: What’s up with assuming that if a black person is on the cover it’s not for you? Come on now, black people have been selling Pampers and Campbell’s Soup and lots of other things for years that aren’t just for us.
Resources:
There are quite a few good blogs out there: RingShout, Color Online, BronzeWord Latino Authors, The Brown Bookshelf.
I have more links on my site.
Some books you've read recently that pleased you?
I just loved Before I Forget by Leonard Pitts Jr. It made me cry. So did The Girl Who Fell From the Sky by Heidi Durrow (coming in Feb.). Feminista by Erica Kennedy and Sag Harbor by Colson Whitehead made me laugh. Big Machine by Victor LaValle made me laugh, cry, wince, wonder and more.
I have a list of 50 great books that would make excellent holiday gifts at IndieBound. And one for Amazon shoppers.
There are so many good things brought out in this interview, I can't even respond to all of them. Thanks for posting this, and thanks for all the wonderful links.
If I had to choose one thing that stood out to me, it would be this:
"...somebody should... and it dawned on me that maybe I was that somebody."
That line of thinking is always behind true innovation. Love it.
Thanks for a great interview, Carleen! I follow your blog and link to it on my own. I don't have a huge following, but I hope that some people see the link and click over.
Your blog is always introducing me to new authors.
Thanks for the links.
That was great. Two thumbs up. Heck, fingers and toes, too.
Can we recommend books? I like recommending books (job withdrawal).
I haven't read Sag Harbor, but Whitehead's The Intuitionist was a rockin' good book. And I'll give some props to David Anthony Durham, writing across a few different genres. Ernest Gaines has got the goods, too. And to go all fanboy for a moment, everyone (EVERYONE) should read Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's Half of a Yellow Sun. Truly one of the best books of the decade, since we're in that "let's wrap up the last ten years" sort of time period.
And I just picked up Alain Mabanckou's African Psycho. Totally looking forward to it.
And, of course, the classics, like Baldwin, Wright and Ellison. American classics for a reason! And I'm not even American! Ooh, and Chester Himes, too. Read him. And Nuruddin Farah. And Minister Faust. And Uzodinwa Iweala. And and and...
I'll shut up now. See? Job withdrawal.
UzodinMa Iweala. I think.
Screw it, here's a link.
Great interview! Makes some excellent points.
I work at a library. Yesterday, I added the new Alex Cross book by James Patterson to our computer system. One of its subject terms - you can find these in the front of most books, toward the bottom of the copyright page, preceded by numbers - is "African American detectives." Do you think a Sam Spade novel has the subject term "Caucasian detectives"? I doubt it. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if there are some "female detectives" out there.)
I think Rejectionist hit the nail on the head with the note about publishers marginalizing writers of color to being writers about "slaves, gangsters, or people living in other countries" while white people write and star in "'regular' books." This assumption is the reason, I think, why some white people shy away from books with black people on the covers. At the risk of sounding crass, we all had to read books about slaves in high school, and they made us feel guilty (and sometimes didn’t do a lot else - I certainly had to read some books in school wherein compelling characters and plot were trampled beneath the RACISM IS BAD message).
This reminds me of the mess back in August when School Library Journal published an article suggesting that publishers help get boys to read by having books with female protagonists that "aren't really about being female" changed to have male protagonists instead.
Obviously, there's a lot wrong with this. Two of the biggest problems are that it fails to address the "is it really okay if many boys won’t read books about girls?" question, and that it would create a world wherein the only books with female protagonists were books expressly concerned with being female. Matilda, His Dark Materials, heck, Nancy Drew - all of these would have had male protagonists, because they're fundamentally about "a teen detective" or "a genius kid with psychic powers," not about "girls." This would leave girls with few female protagonists to whom they, in the full spectrum of their experience, could relate, while also creating the impression that women care intensely, all the time, about being female.
It's the same problem. Publishers seem not to want non-white protagonists unless the book is actually going to be, in large part, about race. This certainly doesn't preclude it having compelling characters and plot or being a good book - witness Octavian Nothing - but it can alienate readers who would love to relate to characters of any and all races, but just want to read a detective (or fantasy or romance or literary) novel, dammit.
I would love to hear of some "regular" books other author-friends liked that star non-white characters. One of my own favorites is Neil Gaiman's Anansi Boys. What are yours?
This was an awesome interview. Thanks, Le R and Carleen Brice!
This issue of breaking through confuses me. The best stories are human, not latino, or asian, or eurocentric, or whatever. Everything else is just setting. Voice is influenced by background, it's how the work is seasoned, so culture flavor is evident in the telling.
I think a lot of white readers see a book by a black author and assume it's a book about being black. Wrong, wrong, wrong. The minority experience might be crucial to the writing of the story, but that is all. Zora Neale Hurston is one of my favorite examples of this. I don't think anyone other than an African American woman who lived in Eatonville at some point could have written Their Eyes Were Watching God, but anyone can read that book and fall in love with it. (I have to admit it's a personal litmus test of mine. If you don't love that book there must be something wrong with you. I would never say that to your face but I'll be thinking it.)
Anyway, thanks again for the interview. I'll pop over and check out the blog!
I've been following Carleen's blog for a while now and I think she's championing a great cause. I even posted her hilarious bookstore video on my facebook page. Some of my friends found it funny and some--not so much.
As an author of women's fiction, I dream of a day when we can find Terry McMillan, Virgina DeBerry/Donna Grant,Connie Briscoe and Jennifer Weiner, Sophie Kinsella, and Candace Bushnell in the same section of a major bookstore. Not black, white, asian, hispanic, or whatever--just women.
Great interview!
Wonderful interview--looking forward to reading several of these books (first on the list-ORANGE MINT AND HONEY) and will add Carleen's blog to my reading list. Thanks!
Love this post Rejectionist. And I agree with the point that Carleen Brice made about how readers should go out of their way to read books by more diverse writers. I've done this myself for several years and have found wonderful writers, and books by doing so. One of my favorite YA books--My Life as a Rhombus is by the black author Varian Johnson.
THANK YOU.
I majored in English in college and read a wide variety then, but I will admit: I am white, I am the mom of 4, and I go running into Barnes and Noble grabbing the first thing that looks "good" that I've heard a few good things about. I totally let them make the decisions for me! I'm adding you to my feed!
Great interview. This is one of those weird things I have never understood in book marketing. How books get labeled "black" versus white etc.
Fantastic! I, too, will make an effort to find new Black authors the way I do now with female authors. Thanks, Ladies!
Excellent post. Are publishers and book sellers judging the ethnicity of the author? This just doesn't make sense to me.
Like you said, most readers don't know what the author looks like-- hence the whole pen name business, where a men write chic lit under a woman's name etc.
If a white person wrote a book with a majority of black characters in it, would it also fall under this genre? (I did not say African American, so as not to limit the nationality of these characters.)
Are Latino writers facing the same constrictions?
You are an amazing woman, Carleen. You have so many things to say. I'm so glad I found this post! I added your blog to my Reader right away, and can't wait to start reading it.
I've just finished my YA fantasy fiction with a black protagonist. So your words resonated deeply with me.
Can you recommend any YA or adult fantasy books with a black protagonist?
Once again, thanks for this.
Dear school: OCTAVIA BUTLER OCTAVIA BUTLER OCTAVIA BUTLER OCTAVIA BUTLER
I loved "Their Eyes Were Watching God'. I read 'Beloved', 'Native Son', 'Clotell'. But I didn't go find those novels because of the author's race. I liked the books, they were interesting.
I like interesting.
Authors, writers, publishers need to make their books a bit more in the public eye. Several of my friends have published books with smaller publishing houses this year, and they push their books just as much or more than publisher.
I'll read anything that catches my eye but it has to catch me first.
Tirz
Great post! Very eye-opening. I just noticed at Target recently an "African American" fiction section on the bookshelf.
While I'm sure they're trying to help draw the black readers to books "for them", I think it also keeps other readers away. Like, "Oh those aren't for me."
I'd love to branch out. Thanks for the book ideas and the great interview!
Thanks for hosting Carleen. Her blog rocks and she gets the word out about great authors who aren't necessarily getting the juice they should.
Also, ITA about Octavia Butler--one of my most fave authors, RIP.
Err.. Umm.. I mean no disrespect, the concept is a good one, and you can't argue with anyone who's working to encourage people to read.. However, in my own experience, most of the time I select a book by an author I don't know, I haven't got the slightest idea what race the author is, nor do I care. I'm not going to go out of my way to seek out books by people of any particular ethnicity. What I'm going to do is go out of my way to seek books that interest me. If that happens to be a book by an author of a different ethnicity than my own, then so it goes. If it's not, then so it goes.. Why can't we just choose books based on our interest, and not on anything to do with who the author is?
That said, I again can't argue with anyone who's spending their time encouraging people to read, and I wish Ms. Brice great success.
Andy, you're missing the point, I think. Other people have already made these decisions for you. You won't see these books because others have already assumed you wouldn't like them. Which just might not be true.
It's not about forcing yourself to read certain things, but simply broadening your possible selections to include books that you wouldn't normally see (not because you wouldn't be willing to read these black or minority authors, but because others are deciding what to show and not show you based on ethnicity, race, etc.). So one of the ways to combat these exclusionary practices is to talk about them, and hopefully encourage people to look beyond what is presented to them and find other books to their liking.
It's like a shell game. They're spinning those three shells around in front of you, but as it happens the coin is hidden in a fourth shell behind the dealer's back. Sometimes it takes a bit of effort to move beyond what someone is showing you to find that coin - in this case, great books that aren't being presented to you.
I don't know about you, but when I'm making my choices I want the full selection to choose from, not just the books people think white boys will probably like.
Just my thoughts.
My best,
Bryan
Well, I'll concede that point, but only on the assumption that you're right. As I can't see behind the curtain I don't know what I'm not seeing.. But then, aren't we subjected to this as soon as a store puts any book into a section? I might look for 1984 under Sci-Fi, but the bookstore put it in Literature. Are they then deciding that this book would appeal more to readers of Classics then to readers of Sci-Fi? Yes, they absolutely are. So, the best thing in this case would be to remove the sections for "African-American authors" or "Urban Lit" and put them all in the same Fiction section. But, then, you have the outcry from the people who want "African-American authors" or "Urban Lit" authors sections highlighted to draw attention to them. It's a Catch-22. Is there a great solution? Not really. The best solution is to be an informed reader, which is Ms. Brice's end goal, so as I said, I can't argue with her, I suppose my problem is that the situation exists at all and that she needs to draw attention to it is unfortunate.
I’ve got so many thoughts on this subject I barely know where to begin. I guess I’ll start with a few of questions. Why aren’t The Secret Life of Bees, the Alex Cross series or Anansi Boys labeled African American (the characters in Anansi Boys are British Caribbean but you know what I mean)? Not that they should be but according to the criteria that’s been set, aren’t they? And if a black author wrote a novel devoid of a single character of color would that book be African American? Ok, and for a last question, if you’re a black German author writing about black characters, is it still African American?
=grin= This is the madness I think about sometimes while perusing the aisles of bookstores each week. I’m confused and troubled by it and I don’t for one second believe it originates from readers. The publishing houses and bookstores are the ones who categorize books.
L.A Banks and her fans had to petition Borders and other bookstores to move her VAMPIRE HUNTRESS LEGENDS series from the Urban Literature/African American section to the SciFi/Fantasy or even Horror sections where it belongs. B&N, however, shelved it properly from the beginning. Subsequently the books have become big sellers. Now Dabel Brothers is releasing a graphic novel based on them placing VHL with other bestselling series in the Urban Fantasy genre: The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher, Anita Blake by Laurell K. Hamilton, Dark Hunters by Sherrilyn Kenyon and Mercedes Thompson by Patricia Briggs.
Justine Larbalestier had to push for a grassroots campaign to get the white girl on the cover of her YA book LIAR changed to a black girl—in keeping with the main character’s ethnicity. Bloomsbury USA Children's Books responded to the tumult and shot a new cover. The book remains highly rated and is selling very well.
Perhaps in addition to seeking out great books by a variety of authors we also need to ask our favorite booksellers and publishers to forget about the ethnicity of the author and categorize books by their genres, ones devoid of color-coding.
Andy,
I'll agree with you there. As a former bookstore owner I can say it's certainly tricky at times trying to shelve things. My choice was to put fiction by African Americans (or African Canadians) in with the rest of the fiction. First, because I think it belongs there. Second, because I think the key is informed customer service, something the chains sometimes lack. If someone wanted to find, specifically, black authors, I could pull such writers out of the mix on my shelves. Would everyone employed at a chain store be able to do that? Maybe not. But maybe that's poor training or hiring more than anything else.
It ain't always easy, though, I'll agree.
Ink,
I think your method would work well and is the kind of thing I wished for in my previous comment. Books with with strong Asian or South American themes are shelved according to their main genre, not by the ethnicity of the author, and yet no one has problems finding books by Amy Tan or Gabriel Garcia Marquez.
We only need to change the process and expectation. Book lovers will always find the books they want and the internet makes sub-genres so much easier to pinpoint.
It's great reading this post and the comments. I've really enjoyed it.
This topic leaves me with mixed feelings. On one hand we're condemning the idea of a category of literature appealing to just one audience; but in the same space we are saying it is okay to have books specifically for women. So it is okay to have books targeted specifically at gender but not race?
YARGH! Once again, my comment got eaten by the internets.
Short version of yesterday's post: recommendations for children's picture books? It can't just be Corduroy and Snowy Day.
Much of these things I'd never thought of as such. But I know I read a lot more white authors, particularly because the books I see by black authors ARE urban.
That might be because I grew up in the Caribbean and there isn't a wide selection. So a lot of the books fit the stereotypes. Now that I write, I find myself more drawn to things outside the urban spectrum, because I didn't grow up urban.
And now I wonder, will this pose a problem for me selling my novels? The fact that I am Black, but I don't fit the African-American stereotype?
I love Carleen's work and what she's doing. Great cause and a wonderful lady. :-D
Linguista,
To your question about whether this issue will impact you as a black writer who isn't African American, I believe the answer is yes.
I just released a novel which is CLEARLY not Urban. From the bright illustrated cover to the content, it's women's fiction/chick lit. Barnes & Noble picked it up in select stores across the country and (in the few I've visited) it sits on the table with urban lit titles, with a sign that says "Urban Literature" on the table. Someone who is looking for women's fiction/chick lit will not look on that table. Someone who is looking for Urban lit, but also just happens to like women's fiction, may happen upon it. I have gone into the store just to observe and some Urban lit readers pick it up but many glaze over it in that section. Next to Emily Giffin or Sophie Kinsella or Terry McMillan, people actually pick it up and a few have purchased.
Now, when I go into stores, I reshelve a few copies so that other audiences may have at least a brief exposure to it before it gets reshelved to Urban Lit. But I can't do that everywhere. It's a shame I have to go to those lengths but it's a start. Maybe there should be a covert national reshelving campaign. lol
What anicalewis and Ink and KLBrady said. We would also argue that "urban lit" is a pretty problematic category in general--uh, do white people not live in cities? Do they not listen to hip-hop? Do they not write books about those exact same experiences, which get shelved in "fiction"? The underlying assumption is that the experience of being a person of color is of interest only to other people of color, which, based on the lovely and heartening comments here at least, seems to be quite untrue.
Jille, writers of color are definitely more marginalized in publishing than women, but that sure doesn't make publishing a hotbed of feminism. The fact that The Corrections is considered Total Genius and, say, all of Austen is "chick lit" certainly points to a larger problem in which stories written by women don't in any way receive the kinds of critical attention and accolades as the same stories written by men. Because, you know, women just want to read about shoes. We don't think that Carleen was giving the go-ahead for that kind of thinking at all--but for writers of color, just the chance to be shelved in the "women's fiction" section, as problematic as that section is, is a huge step forward from the people of color corner where white people fear to tread. Baby steps.
Oh, and a HUGE thanks to Carleen for being SO AWESOME!
Why does the 'urban lit' category exist? How did that come to be?
Wow.
Thank you. Great suggestions!
This is a great site I couldn't stop reading. black expressions clubs
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